What happens to the human condition when technology replaces us? Author Ben Tanzer joins us to unpack sci-fi narratives of broken futures, clones, jobless dystopias, and the trauma of obsolescence.
Hey Joe, Georgia, Ben, and Nick! How are things? Sorry for the later than usual comment - today was busy. But, I really enjoyed this episode! It's one of my favorites and is intriguing.
Orphans sounds like an amazing story. The backstory behind the creation/inspiration of the story moves me. I've had my struggles with anxiety, worry, etc. So it resonated with me.
One of the first things I thought about when I heard about "Orphans" was the graphic novel, "Traveling to Mars". It's a different story but it has a terminally ill man who was used by a company to travel to Mars to claim it for them. Along the way, he reflects on his life. It is a great story and touches on some of the same theme, like capitalism and the devaluing of life.
That is quite the dilemma with a clone. They end up replacing the person in question and are kind. It'll make it difficult for someone to go back to their family and re-establish their relationship. You make a great point about what kinds of rights a clone should have. I think they should have the same constitutional and other legal rights that the rest of us have. Otherwise, as you pointed out, others would take advantage of the lack of rights and commit atrocities against clones. This reminds me of how the clone troopers were used to kill Jedi and then disregarded and left to whither away after the Empire started using stormtroopers in Star Wars.
Excellent discussion about how accurate sci-fi should be. Admittedly, I'm really lax with how accurate sci-fi should be when I read or watch. As long as it's not super egregious, I'm okay with it. But, you make a good point that inaccuracies - even seemingly minor ones - can take a reader out of a book. I should strive for as much accuracy as I can (though there will be some handwavium since I write superheroes, like one who has a super loud and powerful sneeze along with flying powers haha - she's Steph). Speaking of which, I am writing superheroes, and I did get "Physics of Superheroes" book but I was wondering if you have suggestions for resources to learn more about cyborgs, Joe? (Something that can cover the science without being super complicated).
This also reminds me of a time where I gave feedback for a story with solar cars :) It was a pretty cool short story and I gave feedback about how feasible it'd be, especially given weight of the solar panels and thrusters, etc. It was fun.
Also, speaking of this topic, I think it's important to have sensitivity readers too, especially when one is writing about a character of a different background than themselves (and especially when they discuss a character's culture if it's different than the author's).
I haven't read mythological stories of human replacement, but the ones you pointed out are intriguing, Joe.
Excellent discussion about AIs replacing humans. That brings up another thorny issue. Should AIs have rights? If so, what kinds of rights? And there are lots of ethics around that. Forced leisure sounds nice on the surface. We all need a break, and sometimes, we push ourselves very hard. But, I really don't like being forced to do something, and I would not trust an AI (I already am cynical of humans generally, so I wouldn't trust AIs either), especially since one that could be tyrannical (I wonder if it would be since it would used "forced leisure" - and what would be allowed as leisure by the AI? Would there be limitations?). I've been reading the book, "Where the Axe is Buried" and it's a world in which many of the world's leaders are artificial intelligence. And they gave increased wages, benefits, etc. to humans. Sounds good, right? Well...humans also work very menial, tiring jobs, the focus is on productivity, and there is "forced leisure" which also sounds very boring in the book. At least I hope I am remembering it correctly (I read like 160 pages in one day). Either way though, it isn't pleasant. One of the AI leaders also kept raising gas prices and had a full out riot by humans. And the one nation that isn't ruled by an AI is ruled by a dictator (and that nation closely monitors people and people can lose "social credits" (and therefore, their freedom) for many things (including saying something that is opposed to the tyrant's wishes). It's a good book so far, but I guess it's influenced my response lol. With that said, I get where Joe, Ben, Nick, and Georgia are coming from in that it is nice to take a break and it'd be nice to not have to work so long and to take it easy.
And I can see the case for robots replacing jobs- but then it should be up to each person whether they'd want their job to be replaced. Some jobs can be exhausting but some like it regardless. And, there would need to be benefits and social welfare programs to ensure that people can have forced leisure (without worrying about poverty) if it were to happen.
Still, I totally agree that capitalism has caused society to tie people's worth to jobs, and that is problematic. It causes people to look down on others without jobs and those on welfare in the U.S. There's a different outlook in Europe. I remember meeting someone from France who had a totally different view. Other European friends have told me the same thing (it's considered the responsibility of the government and it's a huge difference with how social welfare is seen in the u.S.).
Wow, I need to get off my soapbox lol, sorry.
Ben's upcoming book, After Hours, sounds moving and great. I want to read it. I also will check out his podcast, "This Podcast Will Change Your Life"! I am intrigued. He makes a lot of great points and I really enjoyed the conversation :)
What are your favorite examples of broken futures in sci-fi?
Excellent question.
X-Men Days of Future Past (and I think there were some episodes about this in X-Men The Animated Series): One where the sentinels took over and where mutants and human allies are sent to concentration camps (and anyone who resists is killed). That is so dark and dystopian, but it led to a great movie, a powerful one.
Logan: Another future where mutants were killed and living ones are hunted down (and some were experimented on). A very moving story and one of the best superhero films I've ever seen.
Not quite a future of sorts as it was set in present day, but maybe we could see this in the future (admittedly, not likely, but I do see the possibility of using AI to make decision regarding security, something that could be problematic): Person of Interest. By Season 4, there were two AIs, and one was authoritarian. It seeks order and is disgusted by the terrible things humans have done. So, it tries to eliminate anyone who opposes it or is seen as a threat to it. The other AI is benevolent and seeks to help humans. Both can listen to every call, read every email, and watch people through surveillance cameras. Both stop crime, but one is oppressive. (Here is a clip of them debating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0axtBivkrQ)
Book: "Secrets of PEACE" by T.A. Hernandez - After a devastating war, the U.S. is ruled by the PEACE Project (Protect Enforce Advance Control Eliminate) - it focuses on two characters who are also assassin partners - Zira and Jared. Zira's loyalty is tested after a mission gone wrong. The PEACE Project is tyrannical and seeks to stamp out dissent.
"Where the Axe is Buried" (book). This is long enough lol and I gave a summary in my other comment. But it definitely is a broken future.
Have you ever felt like technology was replacing something fundamentally human in your own life or work?
Great question! Hmm... well, not quite yet. At least, not directly. The internet has replaced encyclopedias, Encarta, and other resources that I enjoyed using before. But I'm not sure if that's fundamentally human per say. I do worry about my job being replaced by an AI in the future though. That's a more general concern. But a lot of what I'm doing hasn't really been replaced. I use the computer much more but my job hasn't really had any elements that have been replaced (just using a different medium).
But, I do have some other tangential examples. When I first learned drafting, I did it by pencil (before doing computer aided drafting later on in high school). When my younger sister learned drafting, it was only by computer.
I heard that kids are using computers at even earlier ages now (like in 1st grade, some are getting laptops).
One thing that worries me though, as someone who loves to write and draw, is AI art replacing human-created art (stories, drawings, songs, etc.). I still love to draw by pencil and I type stories. But I worry about AIs publishing stories (it's already happening) and AI art leaving no room/interest left for human-created art.
But maybe I'm not the right one to comment about this. I'm very much wary of AIs for many reasons lol.
Hey Joe, Georgia, Ben, and Nick! How are things? Sorry for the later than usual comment - today was busy. But, I really enjoyed this episode! It's one of my favorites and is intriguing.
Orphans sounds like an amazing story. The backstory behind the creation/inspiration of the story moves me. I've had my struggles with anxiety, worry, etc. So it resonated with me.
One of the first things I thought about when I heard about "Orphans" was the graphic novel, "Traveling to Mars". It's a different story but it has a terminally ill man who was used by a company to travel to Mars to claim it for them. Along the way, he reflects on his life. It is a great story and touches on some of the same theme, like capitalism and the devaluing of life.
That is quite the dilemma with a clone. They end up replacing the person in question and are kind. It'll make it difficult for someone to go back to their family and re-establish their relationship. You make a great point about what kinds of rights a clone should have. I think they should have the same constitutional and other legal rights that the rest of us have. Otherwise, as you pointed out, others would take advantage of the lack of rights and commit atrocities against clones. This reminds me of how the clone troopers were used to kill Jedi and then disregarded and left to whither away after the Empire started using stormtroopers in Star Wars.
Excellent discussion about how accurate sci-fi should be. Admittedly, I'm really lax with how accurate sci-fi should be when I read or watch. As long as it's not super egregious, I'm okay with it. But, you make a good point that inaccuracies - even seemingly minor ones - can take a reader out of a book. I should strive for as much accuracy as I can (though there will be some handwavium since I write superheroes, like one who has a super loud and powerful sneeze along with flying powers haha - she's Steph). Speaking of which, I am writing superheroes, and I did get "Physics of Superheroes" book but I was wondering if you have suggestions for resources to learn more about cyborgs, Joe? (Something that can cover the science without being super complicated).
This also reminds me of a time where I gave feedback for a story with solar cars :) It was a pretty cool short story and I gave feedback about how feasible it'd be, especially given weight of the solar panels and thrusters, etc. It was fun.
Also, speaking of this topic, I think it's important to have sensitivity readers too, especially when one is writing about a character of a different background than themselves (and especially when they discuss a character's culture if it's different than the author's).
I haven't read mythological stories of human replacement, but the ones you pointed out are intriguing, Joe.
Excellent discussion about AIs replacing humans. That brings up another thorny issue. Should AIs have rights? If so, what kinds of rights? And there are lots of ethics around that. Forced leisure sounds nice on the surface. We all need a break, and sometimes, we push ourselves very hard. But, I really don't like being forced to do something, and I would not trust an AI (I already am cynical of humans generally, so I wouldn't trust AIs either), especially since one that could be tyrannical (I wonder if it would be since it would used "forced leisure" - and what would be allowed as leisure by the AI? Would there be limitations?). I've been reading the book, "Where the Axe is Buried" and it's a world in which many of the world's leaders are artificial intelligence. And they gave increased wages, benefits, etc. to humans. Sounds good, right? Well...humans also work very menial, tiring jobs, the focus is on productivity, and there is "forced leisure" which also sounds very boring in the book. At least I hope I am remembering it correctly (I read like 160 pages in one day). Either way though, it isn't pleasant. One of the AI leaders also kept raising gas prices and had a full out riot by humans. And the one nation that isn't ruled by an AI is ruled by a dictator (and that nation closely monitors people and people can lose "social credits" (and therefore, their freedom) for many things (including saying something that is opposed to the tyrant's wishes). It's a good book so far, but I guess it's influenced my response lol. With that said, I get where Joe, Ben, Nick, and Georgia are coming from in that it is nice to take a break and it'd be nice to not have to work so long and to take it easy.
And I can see the case for robots replacing jobs- but then it should be up to each person whether they'd want their job to be replaced. Some jobs can be exhausting but some like it regardless. And, there would need to be benefits and social welfare programs to ensure that people can have forced leisure (without worrying about poverty) if it were to happen.
Still, I totally agree that capitalism has caused society to tie people's worth to jobs, and that is problematic. It causes people to look down on others without jobs and those on welfare in the U.S. There's a different outlook in Europe. I remember meeting someone from France who had a totally different view. Other European friends have told me the same thing (it's considered the responsibility of the government and it's a huge difference with how social welfare is seen in the u.S.).
Wow, I need to get off my soapbox lol, sorry.
Ben's upcoming book, After Hours, sounds moving and great. I want to read it. I also will check out his podcast, "This Podcast Will Change Your Life"! I am intrigued. He makes a lot of great points and I really enjoyed the conversation :)
Awesome episode! Great discussion :)
Have a nice day, Nick, Joe, Georgia, and Ben! :D.
Response to your questions:
What are your favorite examples of broken futures in sci-fi?
Excellent question.
X-Men Days of Future Past (and I think there were some episodes about this in X-Men The Animated Series): One where the sentinels took over and where mutants and human allies are sent to concentration camps (and anyone who resists is killed). That is so dark and dystopian, but it led to a great movie, a powerful one.
Logan: Another future where mutants were killed and living ones are hunted down (and some were experimented on). A very moving story and one of the best superhero films I've ever seen.
Not quite a future of sorts as it was set in present day, but maybe we could see this in the future (admittedly, not likely, but I do see the possibility of using AI to make decision regarding security, something that could be problematic): Person of Interest. By Season 4, there were two AIs, and one was authoritarian. It seeks order and is disgusted by the terrible things humans have done. So, it tries to eliminate anyone who opposes it or is seen as a threat to it. The other AI is benevolent and seeks to help humans. Both can listen to every call, read every email, and watch people through surveillance cameras. Both stop crime, but one is oppressive. (Here is a clip of them debating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0axtBivkrQ)
Book: "Secrets of PEACE" by T.A. Hernandez - After a devastating war, the U.S. is ruled by the PEACE Project (Protect Enforce Advance Control Eliminate) - it focuses on two characters who are also assassin partners - Zira and Jared. Zira's loyalty is tested after a mission gone wrong. The PEACE Project is tyrannical and seeks to stamp out dissent.
"Where the Axe is Buried" (book). This is long enough lol and I gave a summary in my other comment. But it definitely is a broken future.
Have you ever felt like technology was replacing something fundamentally human in your own life or work?
Great question! Hmm... well, not quite yet. At least, not directly. The internet has replaced encyclopedias, Encarta, and other resources that I enjoyed using before. But I'm not sure if that's fundamentally human per say. I do worry about my job being replaced by an AI in the future though. That's a more general concern. But a lot of what I'm doing hasn't really been replaced. I use the computer much more but my job hasn't really had any elements that have been replaced (just using a different medium).
But, I do have some other tangential examples. When I first learned drafting, I did it by pencil (before doing computer aided drafting later on in high school). When my younger sister learned drafting, it was only by computer.
I heard that kids are using computers at even earlier ages now (like in 1st grade, some are getting laptops).
One thing that worries me though, as someone who loves to write and draw, is AI art replacing human-created art (stories, drawings, songs, etc.). I still love to draw by pencil and I type stories. But I worry about AIs publishing stories (it's already happening) and AI art leaving no room/interest left for human-created art.
But maybe I'm not the right one to comment about this. I'm very much wary of AIs for many reasons lol.
Sorry for two lengthy comments.